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Episode show notes
Credits
Host: Maggie Blaha
Theme music: “Thanks for the Memory” written by Leo Robin and Ralph Rainger, performed by Bob Hope and Shirley Ross in the 1938 film of the same name
Background music: Night In Venice by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/5763-night-in-venice
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
n this special profile episode, I chat with sustainable fashion expert Gaia about some of the inherent problems in the fashion industry. We talk about pollution, the gentrification of thrifting, and how we can change our mindset as consumers.
Here’s where you can follow Gaia’s work:
Instagram: @ssustainably_
Website: Sustainable Fashion
Instagram posts talked about in this episode: October 6, 2020, June 1, 2020
You can find Thrift: Secondhand Community Stories in a few different places on the internet. Choose how you want to follow and engage with us:
Instagram: @thriftpodcast
Facebook: @thriftpodcast
The online thrift shop is slowly coming along, which you can visit on Poshmark at the handle @thrift_podcast. For more updates, you can follow the store on Facebook @thriftpodcastshop and Instagram @thriftpodcastshop.
Episode transcript
*Note about the transcript: Em dashes (‘—’) have been used to indicate when a speaker doesn’t finish a thought or when the conversation between 2 speakers overlaps. [Punctuation decision inspired by Greta Gerwig.]
INTRODUCTION
Maggie: You’re listening to Thrift: Secondhand Community Stories. This is a podcast about thrifting, becoming a more community-minded citizen, and just getting out to explore your neighborhood.
[INTRO - 30 SECONDS]
Maggie: I’m Maggie Blaha, and in this special profile episode I talk with Gaia, the creator of the Instagram account and website ssustainably, about fashion and consumerism. Gaia lives in Italy, and she’s something of a sustainable fashion expert. Her Instagram account has 56K followers, and she uses it to spread awareness about topics people might not know about like the colonial roots of the fashion industry and how we can stop making impulse purchases.
I asked Gaia a number of questions about a few of her posts, as well as how she got into creating educational content around mindful consumerism. I’ll include links to those posts and Gaia’s online presence in the show notes, so you can follow her amazing content.
Here’s my interview with Gaia.
[INTERVIEW BEGINS]
Maggie: The first question I have, and not even really a question, just honestly wanted you to tell me a little bit about your love of clothes and fashion and how that maybe led you to reexamine your shopping habits.
Gaia: Yeah, of course. So, I’ve always been a big fan of fashion, and I’ve always wanted to create my own style. You know I spend so much time in the morning trying to create outfits. Yeah, it’s something that’s always interested me and, at the same time, I’ve always been interested in sustainability. I guess my parents really got me into it. Since I was little they encouraged recycling and making things last. We have solar panels on our home, we’re getting an electric car, so my parents are really into it and I guess that’s really what influenced me.
At the beginning I was really more into the food industry, like I was trying to be vegan and trying to lower my impact in that side of my lifestyle. But at the same time I was accumulating lots of fast fashion and accumulating lots of clothes that I didn’t really use and they lasted so little; I would wear them once and then donate them, and I realized that can’t be sustainable. So I tried to incorporate both sustainability and fashion into my life.
I did the IB for my high school diploma. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. It’s a 2-year program where we choose 6 subjects and, yeah, it’s basically this high school program that I did just because I wanted to study in the U.K. and needed that diploma in order to get into university, and we had to do a sort of thesis to graduate. I decided to do that on the water pollution caused by the fashion industry. I tried to combine business and science, looking at the business side of fashion and the problems with that, like how it encourages overconsumption and how that leads to other environmental problems like water pollution. It was really interesting; I learned so much while researching, and so I decided that I would want to raise awareness around this, because it felt like lots of people didn’t know.
In November 2019, I started my Instagram account. It was just a part-time thing at the beginning, I didn’t really expect the growth it got to. I think we should all know the impacts of our clothes since we all wear clothes.
Maggie: Yeah, so, why Instagram? Why did you start there? And when did you realize, ‘Oh, I’m gaining quite a following here’?
Gaia: Yeah, so I chose Instagram because it was social media I knew how to use. It felt like the easiest, and I was able to publish these graphics in order to communicate information in a very simple way and easy to understand. It’s quite engaging as well, because I noticed people have really short attention spans, and so the best way, I guess, to just get information across was to write small sentences in the carousels on Instagram. So, yeah, that’s why I chose the platform.
As quarantine began, the first one in 2020, I noticed the growth on my account because I was spending so much time on it. I was very consistent with posting, and I posted one post that went viral. It was actually related to thrifting and the gentrification of thrifting and the negative side of it, just because I thought it was interesting to explore. That was a bit of a controversial post, I got so much hate on that, as well, but—
Maggie: Really?
Gaia: Yeah—
Maggie: I had actually started to think about the gentrification of thrifting around the time I discovered that post and your account.
Gaia: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know how it reached so many people, but it got like 73,000 likes, so— Yeah, that was kind of the moment where lots of people started noticing my page, and I got a lot of engagement and following, and my following increased. As I said it was a bit controversial because people felt like in the sustainability movement that there’s nothing you can do because everything has some impact, and so they felt quite frustrated with the fact that, you know, you’re telling us not to buy fast fashion, you’re telling us that thrifting is not as good as we thought, and that’s obviously not what I wanted to get across. It was just— I think it’s all about doing everything in moderation and that’s kind of what I wanted to get across.
Maggie: I want to take a step back and ask you to define sustainability, but now that you brought up that post I’m just curious… So, sometimes I think that we almost think of thrifting and secondhand shopping as something that exists outside of capitalism almost, like we found a way to stick it to the man. Do you think that’s why there was backlash?
Gaia: Yeah, totally. And I think that, you know, it’s the fact that we have so many items in thrift stores and that so many items get donated, I think that it’s kind of a byproduct of the fast fashion industry. So as we’re buying a lot of clothes, as a lot of clothes are being produced, then charity shops become overwhelmed and they get so many donations, so that’s a good thing, obviously, because we can give a new life to things instead of buying new, but at the same time if we bought less fast fashion there probably wouldn’t be as many clothes in charity shops and thrift stores.
So that’s kind of the point I was making and also I was saying that since something is sustainable, like thrifting, obviously, is a more sustainable way to shop since you’re using what’s already been produced, you’re not using more resources, you’re not making really any impact especially if you’re shopping in brick-and-mortar stores. I felt like I was buying a lot of things because I felt, ‘OK, that’s good, so I can buy as much as I want.’ But then I thought, on one side we might be taking clothes away from poor people because a lot of people from low-income neighborhoods really rely on these shops and if we just go there and do thrift hauls then they might be left with— Not with nothing, because there’s a lot of stock, but maybe the best things will be gone, and then the people who rely on it would—
Maggie: Like their size would be gone or something. Yeah—
Gaia: Yeah, and then I was talking about how it basically encourages overconsumption because I saw a lot of thrift hauls, as I said. We’re going to thrift stores, we’re going to the charity shop, and I noticed that people were buying just anything, basically, without even thinking, and I thought, ‘Is that really sustainable?’ I think it’s all in the mindset, as well. It’s not just about where you shop from, it’s how you shop. And so that’s what I was trying to say with that post.
Maggie: I’m just going to jump to the question that I had about that post, too, now that we’re talking about it. So, you posted it on October 6, 2020, and it consisted of a carousel of different graphics that broke down the issue of this gentrification of thrifting where— Like in New York City, especially the way I understand it, too, and it was a little bit of how you were describing it, when we’re shopping secondhand we drive up the prices in neighborhoods of different thrift shops. And then people who actually need them and it’s necessary for, it becomes unaffordable. You had this great quote: ‘Giving up fast fashion for good is a privilege. Giving up overconsumption isn’t.’ I love that. And then, so, the difference between— I wonder if this is where the backlash was coming from, too. So what do you mean when you say ‘overconsumption?’ Is it that thrifting isn’t breaking the habit, which is the ultimate underlying problem?
Gaia: Yeah, exactly. To me, overconsumption is— I mean, it’s still something I struggle with even though it’s something that I know impacts— I feel like it’s so easy now, especially because of all the marketing and advertising that we’re subject to through social media, email marketing, you know, banners everywhere. There’s this culture all around us that we’re sucked into overconsumption where we’re just told to buy things that we don’t really need and that was quite overwhelming to me even from a mental health point of view, because I felt like there was never enough, I always needed to chase the next best thing. What I had was trendy now, but then in a week I would see what someone else was wearing and be like, ‘Oh wow, I need to have that.’ I think that was becoming a bit toxic, and so I thought that even if I switch this to secondhand shopping, is that really an improvement or is that just the same thing but just in a different place? Obviously that’s better, but you’re not really fixing the underlying problem that we— I feel like sustainability just means that we need to do as much as possible with what we have and not depleting the resources we have. That requires a different kind of consumption, and it’s hard, but we do need to be thinking more when we shop.
I feel like with low prices in thrift shops it kind of becomes a bit like, you know, fast fashion because you just buy it because it’s cheap, and then if it’s going to be sitting in your wardrobe where it’s not used, then it probably could serve someone else better than— It would probably be better to change your habits.
I did get backlash because people don’t really want to be told what to do, and that’s obviously not what I was trying to do. I was just trying to give my point of view around that and— I didn’t say don’t thrift shop, absolutely, like I think that’s great. I just said do it mindfully. If you need something, just look in thrift stores first. But also be mindful of other people. For example, instead of getting an XXL t-shirt if you’re a skinny person, then maybe get your size. There’s the problem with sizing as well where, you know, plus size people are often left with no clothes because there isn’t much stock and often people just get huge things and tailor them, which is fine but, you know, again people might be left out.
You really need to ask yourself questions, and that’s not what we do. I feel like that’s hard, just because everything is so quick.
Maggie: Yeah, when you’re going shopping it’s all about, ‘I want, I want.’ Bookstores are my downfall, like used bookstores, where it’s cheap books—
Gaia: Oh yeah—
Maggie: And then I just buy— I’ve never looked into the environmental impact of the book industry, but I like to think it’s not as bad as the fast-fashion industry—
Gaia: Of course, yeah. And, also, we can’t be perfect, so that’s important to remember also.
Maggie: There was another post, too, that I also really appreciated. I had never heard of this person before but have since started following her on Twitter and reading stuff she puts out there, Aja Barber. You quoted her— She’s also a sustainability and fashion expert, and she had this quote about how we as a society really need to stop blaming poor people for fast-fashion consumption. I had honestly never really thought about that before. Could you talk about that quote a little more?
Gaia: I hear that a lot of the time when I post about fast fashion. People are like, ‘ I can’t afford anything else,’ and, you know, one thing is to not afford— I think it’s all about quantity, like that’s basically the main thing that they’re saying. So, yeah, Aja made a few other posts about this, where she basically talked about stop using the excuse that you’re poor for buying fast fashion every week, because obviously if you buy a lot of clothes every week then you have enough money to invest in a more sustainable piece. Obviously everyone does what they want with their money, so that’s up to you, it’s just, you know, think about your choices. If you can buy 5 fast-fashion t-shirts, you can probably invest in a good quality t-shirt from a sustainable brand that would probably be better. What she was saying, Aja, is that you can’t really blame poor people for the fast-fashion growth. People who are truly poor and can’t afford anything else will buy 1-2 things from fast fashion and will make them last. But often people don’t do that, and they say, ‘Oh, I can’t afford anything else.’ But if you can buy a lot, then you probably could afford something else.
Maggie: Do you think it’s, I mean, I guess we’ve just become accustomed to quantity over quality and— Like I wonder, too— I feel like I would be taken aback if— I’m sure a good quality t-shirt costs anywhere from like $35-$40. Maybe a little less than that, in the $20 range, but I could foresee myself getting a little price tag shock about a single t-shirt costing that much money.
Gaia: Because we’re so used to cheap clothes, and we’ve lost the understanding of what true value is. I posted about how clothing shopping did use up most of our income. Before globalization everything was made locally and clothes were so expensive that we would buy so few and make them last. That was a totally different way of shopping from what we do now, and, obviously, that doesn’t mean you have to be a minimalist because I, myself, like to adopt that mentality, but at the same time I like to have variety in my closet.
I feel like we need to question price tags more, because, yes, it is a lot—like what you’re saying, a t-shirt in the $20-$30 range, absolutely—but, at the same time, clothing requires a lot of resources and so many steps, and it goes around the world for the cotton to be produced, and then to be turned into fiber, and the fiber into garment, and then dyed and finished. So many steps go into that, and if you think about how those steps can be condensed into a price tag of $5, then that can’t be sustainable, someone is paying that price. So that’s kind of what I wanted to get across.
There is a possibility of making sustainable fashion cheaper, especially if you do everything in-house and you don’t have to pay a lot for shipping costs. What I guess those brands are able to do, fast fashion, they’re able to just mass produce, which drives down the price. At the same time, there’s so much pressure on the suppliers to produce as fast as possible, as cheap as possible, and so someone is being exploited along the way, and that’s obviously not sustainable. I think that it is possible for something to be more affordable but still sustainable, but we do need to change our mindset as to what we’re accustomed to when it comes to pricing with clothes.
Maggie: One more question about another Instagram post. So in this post you talked about what you called ‘the role of indigenous knowledge’ in the sustainability conversation. Would you mind explaining what that means a little more? I think you were giving some recommendations for indigenous fashion designers that people should look out for.
Gaia: So I saw this article in Vogue where the writer interviewed lots of indigenous designers and it really interested me because I was reading a lot about how the sustainability movement is quite whitewashed and I totally saw that. Especially on social media you can see that the main people talking about this were white people and, I mean, I myself am part of the problem. But we’re seeing sustainability only from one lens. It’s good to include other cultures because we all have something to bring to the table, and so we should obviously include as many people as possible and diversify the conversations. The Western view isn’t necessarily the best one, and we can all learn something from listening to other people.
What I noticed in the quotes that I included in that post was that indigenous designers, indigenous people in general, really do have a better connection to the land, and so they value resources more. They’re more intune with the earth and its rhythms, and so instead of exploiting natural resources they use them in a more sustainable way that can be replenished. They talk about sustainability being their lifestyle for survival, so it wasn’t some extra effort like we put in kind of. They also talked about how lots of natives still hold that concept and still operate that way where they don’t overproduce and just make the most of what they have. They make sure they respect the earth, which is something we can really learn from. With fast fashion especially, we've totally lost that connection with the earth, we’ve lost the knowledge of where our clothes come from, what’s in them, and what we’re wearing. It’s good to go back to the basics and learn about this, and it’s also important that we’re told this by brands. It all goes back to what I was talking about before about knowing the true value of resources.
Maggie: What do you think is the Western, whitewashed definition of sustainability?
Gaia: I think it’s all got to do with consumption and what we can buy, and that’s actually, I don’t know if you’ve heard of her, but Elizabeth Kline, she wrote a couple of books on sustainable fashion, and she wrote an article recently talking about how we often think consumption and consuming in a more mindful way is the best thing to do, but really she gives a different point of view. We’ve kind of lost the collective action driver that really created real change throughout history, and so what she basically was saying is that we need to understand the root of the problem and organize against the biggest polluters, instead of taking it upon ourselves to change the system. I always say that small actions make a difference over time, but she said in her article that it created this ethical consumerism, this alternative market, rather than changing fast-fashion brands, and that’s so true! We’ve seen a lot of small businesses start and grow, which is awesome, but isn’t really changing the brands that hold the most power?
So I think the whitewashed view of sustainability still has to do with consumption, and also a sort of white saviorism. Especially with ethical brands, like there are lots of brands that basically start and their whole mission is about empowering communities in the global south, but it should be more about helping them find their voices rather than putting yourself at the center of it and wanting people to think you’re a good person when we have so much to learn from these communities. They should be put at the forefront. They should have the profit they deserve from making the clothes, instead of just getting photos taken and put on a website.
That’s what I think about the whitewashing, but I’m still trying to educate myself. I don’t know everything; I’m not perfect. I’m also trying to talk about this more on my page, because I think it’s something that’s often overlooked.
Maggie: Speaking of privilege, do you see your blog and Instagram account as ways of using your privilege to bring notice to these different lenses?
Gaia: Yeah, absolutely! I mean, I’m trying to do that. I don’t know if I’m doing enough yet, I think that there are definitely things I can improve. I was actually thinking recently about how maybe I want to get more people to talk to me, maybe people of color sharing their experiences. Maybe thinking about how they [people of color] think the industry can be racist or, yeah, getting more diverse voices because I obviously can’t be an expert in everything, I can’t know every single aspect of sustainable fashion so it’s good to get different perspectives.
I guess everyone has their own view and their own experience with sustainability, so it’s good to see the different views on it and the different ways to incorporate it in our lives. But, yeah, I do try to raise awareness about things, and hopefully that does make a difference. It’s not easy balancing it, especially with Uni and stuff, but I’m always looking for ways to improve.
Maggie: Do you still enjoy thrifting? Can we still enjoy shopping?
Gaia: Absolutely! I mean, of course, I love fashion, and I think it’s such a fun way and probably the best way to express our style and ourselves, as well. What I love about thrifting is that I can be unique, you know, my self can be unique, and nobody really will look like me because they can’t really buy the same thing, or at least it’s very rare. But it’s obviously something that’s very human, as well: trying to portray ourselves through what we wear, and that’s the first thing we see, you know, that’s the first thing we see on other people and the first thing we judge people on, I guess. It is such a big thing.
I really miss shopping in a store, but yes, absolutely. I think knowing the impacts of the industry can be overwhelming and can get us to kind of hate shopping in a way, but it’s actually a way to do some good, because we can keep clothes away from landfills, we can support small businesses, we can redistribute money as well, because if we support smaller companies, we do give them a chance to grow and a chance to create their own thing and their own unique style and— For sure, it’s obviously possible, and I obviously want to communicate that on my
Profile, as well. That it’s totally fine to enjoy shopping, and you should enjoy shopping.
Maggie: You’re much more well-versed on the subject of sustainability and the role fashion has to play in it than I am, but I guess I’ve personally noticed that it seems to be mostly women having these conversations. I guess I wanted to know, from your perspective, whether that seems true. Do you think that this is something that only women care about and should women be responsible for leading this conversation?
Gaia: I think that’s something that I’ve noticed, and I think that’s something I’m not too happy about, because obviously the more people who are included in this conversation the better. But I think that people are really only interested in this conversation if they’re interested in style and fashion. A lot of men might just wear clothes just for, you know, utility purposes, just to cover their bodies. A lot of men, and women as well, might not put as much thought into their clothing choices, so if they don’t particularly love style and aren’t particularly passionate about fashion, they might not think that they should be included in the conversation; they might not think that it’s their job.
But what I always try to point out is that when you buy clothes we all contribute to it, so, you know, I think it is something that we all should be together trying to do better. Not just buying better, but also from a collective action point of view. Call companies out, be informed about where your clothes come from. Who makes them? Be curious and ask questions. This is basically what Fashion Revolution says. I love their organization. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it?
Maggie: I don’t think so. What is it?
Gaia: It’s this really big nonprofit organization that was born in 2013 after the Rana Plaza factory collapse in Bangladesh. Lots of garment workers died, I think it was more than a thousand, because of the fast-fashion rhythm where they were pressured to produce a lot, so they weren’t working in safe conditions, and this organization started to bring more transparency to the industry, more accountability. So they create transparency reports every year where they highlight the most transparent companies, and during Fashion Revolution Week, which falls on the day of Rana Plaza, they encourage people to post on Instagram a graphic that asks ‘Who made my clothes?’ So showing the tag of a t-shirt and holding up the sign ‘Who made my clothes?’, and tagging the company that made your garment. I think that’s something that we all should get involved in, I think that’s a great initiative.
Yeah, I definitely want to see more people involved in sustainable fashion. So, hopefully, everyone will slowly start to realize their impact. You don’t have to dedicate your whole life to it, but even just small changes can go a long way.
Maggie: In Italy, do you find that thrifting and sustainable fashion are more a part of the culture now?
Gaia: Unfortunately, no. In Italy I haven’t seen a lot of progress just because, first of all, we don’t really have thrift stores here. We only have vintage stores, which have very fancy, designer pieces. Unique luxury pieces, which, obviously, are expensive. You can find clothes there, for sure, but the average person doesn’t buy from there because it’s very pricey. They’re obviously good quality clothes, but they’re not accessible to everyone.
That’s a big obstacle, because we have used clothes bins, but most of that clothing ends up in landfills. I think there needs to be a culture change here when it comes to the perception of used clothes, because it’s still seen as a bit of a taboo. I mean, even my parents at first were like, ‘Why are you buying something that someone else wore?’ And there’s also superstition around it, as well, like what if I’m wearing something that belonged to a dead person, like that might bring evil spirits and stuff, so there are a lot of misconceptions and myths around that.
But I am seeing a bit of a rise in people using apps like Depop or Vintage and other secondhand shopping apps, so that’s good. But, unfortunately, as fast fashion becomes cheaper, even used clothes might sometimes seem more expensive. You might see a vintage t-shirt that’s like 10 Euros, and if you go to Zara you can find one for 5, so it’s very competitive in a way and some people— Since we don’t have thrift stores, [people] might be a little more reluctant to buy online, and they prefer stores. You know, it’s much easier to just go to Zara and H&M to buy whatever you need. There needs to be improvements around this. But, yeah, I guess we kind of are on the right track, especially with the younger generation.
I recently spoke at my high school with my old classmates and spoke about what I do, and it was great to see people being like, ‘Oh, wow, I never thought of that. I think I will start buying used more, so I think education really goes a long way.
Maggie: In the U.S. I've noticed that some larger brands have started to have an upcycled line of clothing, which on the one hand is good but it feels more like these brands have just realized that this is another way they can make a profit in the market.
Gaia: There’s always profits behind what fash fashion does, so that’s why boycotting brands is a bit of a good way, because if it hits their bottom line they will have to change things, so that’s kind of the way I see it.
Maggie: Right. But, again to your point before, only the people who care about these issues are going to be the ones to boycott, and is that enough?
Gaia: Exactly. Like, for example, global warming and increasing temperatures is seen as everyone’s responsibility. But fashion isn’t. Fashion is seen as a very girly thing and something very frivolous, not something very important and significant. But it is very significant, it does have huge impacts, it’s a huge industry, so I think the general interpretation needs to change a little bit.
Maggie: So, with COVID, what sort of an impact do you think it’s had on the fashion industry and shopping secondhand?
Gaia: There have been some concerns about germs and stuff when it comes to secondhand clothes, especially now with the pandemic, so I think some people have definitely gotten into it as they realize the impacts of the industry, but I think other people have been a bit reluctant just because they felt like it was a bit unsafe during this time to buy secondhand clothing. But I think these are short-term impacts. I think that everything will go back to normal, hopefully soon or, at least— A new normality, I guess. I think people will buy a lot, just because I think they will want to go back to what they used to do before, and they’ve probably felt like they were missing out on a lot. But, on the other hand, I feel like people have realized that they have so many clothes. Having been at home for so long we’ve realized, me included, that my wardrobe is full of items. I’ve done a bit of decluttering and organizing, and I realize that I probably shouldn’t buy anything else. And hopefully other people have felt the same way and, you know, will probably change their habits afterwards.
In the long-term, I think that change will definitely happen, and for fashion brands as well, because we’ve seen how catastrophic it’s been for brands to have this excess stock and not know what to do with it. It’s a waste of money, as well, so they will probably realize that they have to do things in a different way. So, hopefully from a consumer and brand point of view things will start to change for the better.
[END OF INTERVIEW CLIP]
CONCLUSION
Maggie: What do you all think? Are we headed to a more sustainable future in terms of fashion? What would it mean for you to think more about how you shop, what you wear, where you go to shop? What would that look like for you on an individual level? What could this look like at a large scale?
Gaia’s view is that any small changes you make to your shopping habits can make a difference, but she also cites Elizabeth Kline’s point that to make real change we have to identify the root of the problem and rally against it—rally against the brands that are the biggest polluters. Both of these ideas are true, and both are necessary. Change needs to be the responsibility of consumers and the companies we shop from.
I highly recommend following Gaia on Instagram @ssustainably__ and her website, which I link to in the show notes. I promise you’ll learn a lot and, with any luck, will start thinking differently about how you shop for clothes.
And if you want to follow me, there will be links in the show notes for where you can do that, as well.
Thanks for listening!
[OUTRO, 10 SECONDS]
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